Curse

maxxfury · Jun 06, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I never ran more than about 7 fc anyway on ap sin spam..had better things to spec into :P so in that respect, the fc 'change' hasnt made any difference to casting for me, and the true power, as stated earlier

is ap+ae..

Now its much more in line with the sin/mes version. Until you spec high dom for chaos storm, and unnatural..xD

Ap spam/spike is still for me, the best bar to run..the new shutdowns like panic just arent as good in play as they should be on paper. PI is still very sexy in the harder areas tho, where some shutdown does matter (like the harder dungeons)

JoeKnowMo · Jun 07, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Here's what I'm using:
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Sig of Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Drain Delusions
Cry of Pain
Calculated Risk

Calculated Risk is phenomenal when used against AoE casters or attackers. It also works against damage from skills like Whirling Defense. It only procs 50% of the time so it's a gamble but with a 5s recharge and 5e cost, it's a cheap, spammable Pain Inverter, albeit with a lower success rate.

It's almost a must have on an Illusion bar if you want to make tough enemies go boom.

Smarty · Jun 07, 2010, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Here's what I'm using:
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Sig of Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Drain Delusions
Cry of Pain
Calculated Risk

I was going to try something similar for myself/a hero but I like dom too much to have gotten round to working out exactly which skills I'd pick. So, as you've done it already, I have a few questions about your skill choices if you don't mind.

The above is 7 skills. Which are you using for #8?
Are you using just Drain Delusions for emanagement or do you have another?
Do heroes use Drain Delusions properly or would I need to find another emanagement skill for them?
12-9-9 att split illu-fc-insp, or something different?
What would you take in place of CoP for a hero?

The Josip · Jun 07, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Calculated Risk is phenomenal when used against AoE casters or attackers. It also works against damage from skills like Whirling Defense. It only procs 50% of the time so it's a gamble but with a 5s recharge and 5e cost, it's a cheap, spammable Pain Inverter, albeit with a lower success rate.

That skill is amazing - 5e, long lasting, perfect for DDelusions, and yes, acts as a mini Pain Inverter which is main reason I love it. It has a damage limit like PI, but it will sometimes reflect damage in packages much like PI; x+x+x. And as you noticed, it works on other things not just standard attacks. I noticed some weird things myself, mostly when I'd cast this on casters. But they died too fast and didn't see what caused the skill to trigger (it wasn't wanding).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

The above is 7 skills. Which are you using for #8?

I know the question wasn't directed at me but since I posted pretty much the same build here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=15

Mmm I've been experimenting with variations of this builds, namely adding Fragility, Frustration etc, and wasn't fully satisfied with any of it. This is the core of the build:

Ineptitude
Wandering Eye
Clumsiness
Signet of Clumsiness
Calculated Risk
Drain Delusions

This part is well balanced when it comes to energy, meaning that you can spam the skills all the time. Each skill is also extremely useful.

I'd say there is no "right skill" for last 2 spots. I'm sorry but you'll just have to improvise. He posted CoR. My personal preference is Pain Inverter because you're mostly anti-melee (although it will work on casters often too), and Pain Inverter means you can often kill a caster in 2 seconds (he casts AoE spell and puff). Keep in mind that the energy is getting tricky with whatever skill you'll put here.

It's the same with 8th skill. Don't bother with damage skill - you most likely won't have time to cast it, nor energy. I suggest some backup skill that might be useful in some situations, but definitely not what you'll need in every battle. You didn't use 3 PvE slots, so I'd consider pretty much everything from asuran summon for passive damage, or signet of capture if you're skill hunting, or rez if the rest of the team doesn't have it and you don't use scrolls, or something that depends on the mission (Nundu Bay skill, Imperial Sanctum skill, support skill such as Breath of the Dwarf). I dunno, I'm still experimenting myself.

I can tell you what I tried and what I didn't like:

* Frustration. Yes, you'll cause 50 damage with few of your skills.. on a single target. 100 if you're lucky and target uses a skill. The main problem of this skill is that it's counter-productive to the entire build. Yes, you'll take one target down faster, but what you really want is your spells to bring down entire mob together. Let's put it this way: you have 3 warriors ganging on your hero: T T T. Of course, you target the middle one, so Ineptitude nicely affects all. If you use Frustration, this might happen: T.....T. What does that mean? That means now you need to target each T separately with Ineptitude, Clumsiness and Sig of Clumsiness. So Frustration actually made things worse. Another thing is that Frustration is 10 energy, which is a lot. And third is that you want Frustration to trigger, and when it trigger Clumsiness + Frustration can do like 200 damage. Which means you won't be able to use Drain Delusions on near-dead target quite often and get some of Frustration energy cost back. Frustration is single target, in a build that is anti-mob one. If you want to be great at fighting single targets, take AP EVAS spammer build. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have great single target options - which is why I use Pain Inverter. It's the best anti-caster skill, and Ineptitude will completely shut down and kill single melee/ranged attacker.

* Fragility. I tried this and it was okayish but I was not completely satisfied. If you have burning in the group, if someone is causing other conditions, it might be better. With Ineptitude alone you'll cause nice small packages of damage, and skill is nice for DD, but it's not worth a skill slot just because of that. It's good as a cover hex too. This skill competes with all PvE skills too.

Quote:

Are you using just Drain Delusions for emanagement or do you have another?

DD should be all emanagement you use. DD balances your first 6 skills. If you really want, for whatever reason, to use some high-energy (or spamming) skill as 7th skill, go ahead and use 8th slot for another emanagement skill. But I'd advise for better selection of 7th and 8th slot - DD can cover the energy cost well.

Quote:

Do heroes use Drain Delusions properly or would I need to find another emanagement skill for them?

Find another. I never tried it with heroes, but you really don't want to risk and see them trying to cast DD immediately after Clumsiness. Besides, do you really want to limit your own build to non-hex one? Since hero might just remove your own hex.

DD is not spamming egain. DD requires a lot of skill - you need to pay attention to who has which hex, you need to time it right (use it before target dies, or hex expires, unless emergency when you use it whenever).

Quote:

12-9-9 att split illu-fc-insp, or something different?

16-10-10 is what you need.

Quote:

What would you take in place of CoP for a hero?

Hero AI is entirely different matter. For one, you need to be sure hero doesn't cast Ineptitude on just about anyone you target - but on attackers. I couldn't tell you that's the case, maybe someone knows or just test it.

If you really want optimized heroes, you'll have to do some testing. I don't even use pvx Discordway or Spiritway. I use my own variations which I like more, and they are a result of some testing. That's what this Ineptitude build also is - a result of some testing. 6 core skills are great, but for last 2 it's nothing set in stone, which I think is great because it allows for diversity and adaptability.

JoeKnowMo · Jun 07, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

The above is 7 skills. Which are you using for #8?

Usually a cap sig since this is a new character. Otherwise Power Drain since I don't have all the PvE skills yet.

I think Pain Inverter, as Josip points out, is a great one to take. I might consider EVAS as well since this bar doesn't deal with healers well.

Quote:

Are you using just Drain Delusions for emanagement or do you have another?

Just DD.

Quote:

Do heroes use Drain Delusions properly or would I need to find another emanagement skill for them?

I haven't tested much but they don't seem to use it well at all.

Quote:

12-9-9 att split illu-fc-insp, or something different?

12-9-9. I will go 16 Illusion eventually but since my char is working on survivor the traditional way, this might take a while.

Quote:

What would you take in place of CoP for a hero?

Drain Enchantment or Power Drain or both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

That skill is amazing - 5e, long lasting, perfect for DDelusions, and yes, acts as a mini Pain Inverter which is main reason I love it.

I was pleasantly surprised with effective it is.

Quote:

I know the question wasn't directed at me but since I posted pretty much the same build here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=15

Yeah, I saw your build and I think that's why I decided to try Calculated Risk.

Essence Snow · Jun 07, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I'm amazed that I don't see more about Shared Burden in this thread. 50% less attacking, casting, and movement for 5e=win in HM. I can only reason this b/c it doesn't do any dmg, but it basically shuts down HM making it laughably easy.

JoeKnowMo · Jun 07, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I'm amazed that I don't see more about Shared Burden in this thread. 50% less attacking, casting, and movement for 5e=win in HM. I can only reason this b/c it doesn't do any dmg, but it basically shuts down HM making it laughably easy.

- Tryptophan Signet will slow down movement and attack by up to 40% and costs no energy although it takes up a PvE skill slot.
- Shadow of Fear will cause 50% slower attacking only, but it lasts longer and recharges in 5s.
- Arcane Conundrum will increase spell casting time by 100% and will return energy.
- Water Magic hexes can also slow down foes.

Shared Burden has greater range and accomplishes what 2 of the above skills does but it is Elite.

SB doesn't synergize with too many skills. Slower attacking can sometimes make the 3 anti-physical Illusion spells (Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye) miss. Slower casting or attacking will result in a slower death for an offensive caster or an AoE physical type or boss hexed with Calculated Risk or Pain Inverter.

SB synergizes with interrupts. But you'd have to spec into Domination to use the best Mesmer interrupts and then you're spread out into 4 attributes. Although, it works great with Sig of Clumsiness because you can KD when enemies attack slower.

It may synergize with mass AoE damage from your team, but you could use Water Magic hexes for this instead and add some damage. Deep Freeze has a larger range and slows down even more and you can provide disruption with Maelstrom.

I'm not willing to give up an elite slot for a skill that slows everything but provides no damage and has little synergy with other skills. When compared to the possibility of 128+ AoE damage while also causing 90% chance to miss with attacks that Ineptitude provides, SB seems weak. I'd even take Panic before SB because it can provide near total caster shutdown.

************************************************** **************

I have to give a huge thumbs up to Complicate. It is a niche skill, but if you know what you'll be facing, it can make the battle pretty easy. A great skill on a Domination bar if you're going to be facing multiple casters of the same type. Catch something like Rodgort's with it and that mob of fire imps has been rendered much weaker. It would also be great against the Roaring Ethers and their E-Surge spike. Also, not bad against the Jade Brotherhood and their cyclone axe spam.

The Josip · Jun 07, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

128+ AoE damage

Just to fix this, it look nicer when you type:

142 AoE damage. With permanent blind.

(You should really be using superior rune, and as for survivor I highly recommend doing Kilroy first. You don't want to die because of lag, disconnect, or simple accident - and these do and will happen.)

The Drunkard · Jun 07, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Shared Burden has greater range and accomplishes what 2 of the above skills does but it is Elite.

SB doesn't synergize with too many skills. Slower attacking can sometimes make the 3 anti-physical Illusion spells (Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye) miss. Slower casting or attacking will result in a slower death for an offensive caster or an AoE physical type or boss hexed with Calculated Risk or Pain Inverter.

SB synergizes with interrupts. But you'd have to spec into Domination to use the best Mesmer interrupts and then you're spread out into 4 attributes. Although, it works great with Sig of Clumsiness because you can KD when enemies attack slower.

Try discordway or spiritway. SB stops most noncasting foes from doing too much damage to the team, while slowing opposing casters down so healers can handle the pressure. SB with discordway is slower than with AP or inepitude, but it adds a lot of survivalbility to the table. 2man discord way can have 2 mesmer people (one with SB and one with PI) and shrug off most mobs, as long as they're hexed. I tried gate of madness HM with a friend and didn't have any problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I have to give a huge thumbs up to Complicate. It is a niche skill, but if you know what you'll be facing, it can make the battle pretty easy. A great skill on a Domination bar if you're going to be facing multiple casters of the same type. Catch something like Rodgort's with it and that mob of fire imps has been rendered much weaker.

Didn't realize complicate got changed, thought they scrapped it with PD

Tested it out and it's VERY helpful with vanquishing Joko's and many proph areas, since a lot of the mobs are the same creatures. Many thanks for pointing that out!

Anyone use builds with stolen speed? I've been trying to use SS+Tryptophan Signet with 3 savanah heat eles and it works ok.

aefghuys · Jun 07, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37

i'm also loveing the ineptitude setup...heres my current one thats workin well... 12 FC 6 Insp 14-16 Illusion

1- inept
2- clumsi
3- wandering eye
4- sig of clum
5- calculated risk
6- whatever(im using "finish him" now)
7- ethereal burden
8- ausp inc

the last 2 skills are the energy management(and a great combo as a i can spam my other skills nonstop with them and also get a snare...just takes a small amount of practice to get the feel for it) some people like drain delusions but u dont have to remove any hexes with this one and can keep ur main attributes higher.

The Josip · Jun 08, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Try discordway or spiritway. SB stops most noncasting foes from doing too much damage to the team, while slowing opposing casters down so healers can handle the pressure. SB with discordway is slower than with AP or inepitude, but it adds a lot of survivalbility to the table. 2man discord way can have 2 mesmer people (one with SB and one with PI) and shrug off most mobs, as long as they're hexed. I tried gate of madness HM with a friend and didn't have any problems.

Well you said it yourself: it's slower.

Yes, it adds more survivability, but if it's overall slower, what good is the survivability unless you're Survivor.

What henchmen do you use? Because with Discordway and Spiritway your survivability is already amazing. Then again I use 2 Monk henchmen and don't know how it is with one monk henchman.

Don't get me wrong, I think Shared Burden is a great skill, but it IMO lacks the edge that's all.

ps: Anyway, I like to change playstyles so will try this skill too for the fun of it. How does it compare to Panic, for those who tried both? Panic vs Shared Burden, which one provides more disruption in practice? Range is the same.

cellardweller · Jun 08, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I've been having huge success with with this bar
[Psychic Instability][Wastrels Worry][Shatter Delusions][Mistrust]
[Power Drain][Unnatural Signet][Drain Ench][Guilt]
PI->ww->US->pick caster->ww->Mistrust->tab->ww->Shatter

I'm generally playing with 2-3 other people so I've allways got someone blocking all the red dots into adjacent aoe's for me and its been giving me similar numbers to those that I see with MoP in with an earthshaker warrior - generally the whole group dead is by the time that they get up from PI. I'm running Shared Burden on Norgu to make hitting PI from Australia a bit easier with his 9spec MoP finishing up the rest of the damage needed for the kill.

WW on prophesies bosses in the middle of a group is just giggles

Chthon · Jun 08, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Developmental build, V2. Call it "Option Quarterback"

AP
AEcho
Chaos Storm
Vanguard Sin
Mind Wrack
CoP
Shatter Delusions
Ether Signet

AEcho Sin or Storm as best fits the situation.
Note that Sin's Iron Palm can be used to KD a monster in the Storm(s) if you fear it might run away.
Wrack --> CoP --> Shatter for a quick spike of 181 delivered over ~1 sec, plus some degen and AoE splash.
Don't miss with AP, since you only get one shot of Ether Signet per recharge.

You can switch Ether Signet for Drain Delusions or AIncantation, but I find they cost too much cast time at inconvenient moments as compared to Ether Signet.

maxxfury · Jun 08, 2010, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Developmental build, V2. Call it "Option Quarterback"

AP
AEcho
Chaos Storm
Vanguard Sin
Mind Wrack
CoP
Shatter Delusions
Ether Signet

AEcho Sin or Storm as best fits the situation.
Note that Sin's Iron Palm can be used to KD a monster in the Storm(s) if you fear it might run away.
Wrack --> CoP --> Shatter for a quick spike of 181 delivered over ~1 sec, plus some degen and AoE splash.
Don't miss with AP, since you only get one shot of Ether Signet per recharge.

You can switch Ether Signet for Drain Delusions or AIncantation, but I find they cost too much cast time at inconvenient moments as compared to Ether Signet.

Thats the bar i have loaded atm too..
Tho swapping out Shatter dels for FH! when i dont expect the team to be able to reliably score kills for ap procs. And indeed Ether sig was always for me interchangeable with my mood with AI.

All in all...its almost identical to the bar i ran pre patch, with just chaos storm and shatter dels been subbed in for fh! and an area specific optional slot. Tho i was looking at Unnat sig for cop for a cheaper bar, but i like the aoe degens and interrupt, and energy is still easy *shrugs

Kinda sad that with all the changes, its still the best general bar to run eh?.. /points at YOU assassins promise!

Quail Stomp · Jun 08, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Well mesmers are not the only proffesion that abuse AP with it being stupidly op. Its kind of strange that an assassin elite is the best choice for most of the casters.

FoxBat · Jun 08, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Vanguard Sins deal around 400 damage for 10e and 1s cast, not counting knockdown, possible buffs and meat shield aspect. Even AoE often has trouble keeping up with that, of course you're going to get the most damage echoing and APing it. 400 single target for 10e and 0 recharge is not a reasonable number for classes to be balanced around, and AP-EVAS is therefore the choice for most damage casters, not just mesmers.

Many of the mesmer buffs are defensive oriented. If you're perfectly happy with your hero setup that breezes through 95% of PvE and falls flat in the 5%, then take that same setup through the 95% and play your defensive mesmer bar, of course it's going to be inferior to a max damage option.

Lanier · Jun 09, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Vanguard Sins deal around 400 damage for 10e and 1s cast, not counting knockdown, possible buffs and meat shield aspect.

You have to wonder why a skill like this (or like AP) hasn't been nerfed yet... Anet has done well with buffs recently but they have really dropped the ball on nerfing the obviously Overpowered skills.

Quail Stomp · Jun 09, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Was just thinking about the vangaurd sin doing 400 single target dmg. I can get close to that in aoe now with knockdown from PI. It does take a bit more energy and skill. Takes about 5 seconds so not a big speed diffrence.

The Drunkard · Jun 09, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Well you said it yourself: it's slower.

Yes, it adds more survivability, but if it's overall slower, what good is the survivability unless you're Survivor.

What henchmen do you use? Because with Discordway and Spiritway your survivability is already amazing. Then again I use 2 Monk henchmen and don't know how it is with one monk henchman.

The general formula I use is a healer hench, a meele hench, and the rest depend on the area I'm in. I don't need 2 monks for most HM areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Vanguard Sins deal around 400 damage for 10e and 1s cast, not counting knockdown, possible buffs and meat shield aspect. Even AoE often has trouble keeping up with that, of course you're going to get the most damage echoing and APing it. 400 single target for 10e and 0 recharge is not a reasonable number for classes to be balanced around, and AP-EVAS is therefore the choice for most damage casters, not just mesmers.

Many of the mesmer buffs are defensive oriented. If you're perfectly happy with your hero setup that breezes through 95% of PvE and falls flat in the 5%, then take that same setup through the 95% and play your defensive mesmer bar, of course it's going to be inferior to a max damage option.

I did some testing with the master of damage a max vanguard sin will do an average of 590 damage against a non-char monster. I then tried the sin against a 100al target and found the damage to be reduced to an average of 280. Against monsters with high Armor inepitude can put out more damage than APEVAS, but this is against multiple foes and lacks the spike potential APEVAS has.

maxxfury · Jun 10, 2010, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Also gotta remember that you can easily have 6+(prob even 10/12+ in vanguard land!) sin's out at any one time in the same time it takes ineptitude to recharge, and all the recharges you get from AP as well. Tho ineptitude is pretty solid in any case! especially when you ball the phys mobs.